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When it comes to the top investment banks, I’m a huge fan of ranking everything imaginable.
From schools to restaurants to investment banks, what’s the point of life unless you’re constantly comparing yourself to others?
Just kidding – it’s a massive waste of time.
Despite that, it is helpful to know about the different types of banks, especially since the categories have changed over time.
And while it’s stupid to “rank the banks,” it is helpful to understand the trade-offs of working at firms in different categories.
- Warnings and Disclaimers
- Categories of Top Investment Banks
- How Are the Top Investment Banks Different?
- Bulge Bracket Investment Banks (BBs)
- In-Between-a-Banks (IBABs)
- Elite Boutique Investment Banks (EBs)
- Up-and-Coming Elite Boutiques (UCEBs)
- Middle Market Banks (MMs)
- Industry-Specific Boutique Banks (ISBs)
- Regional Boutique Banks (RBs)
- Other Categories Of Bank
- So, Which Top Investment Bank Should You Work At?
- Got Rankings for the Top Investment Banks?
- For Further Learning
Warnings and Disclaimers
First, this article is less of a ranking and more of a classification of the top investment banks.
As you’ll see, many of the groups “rank” at about the same level.
Second, do not judge yourself based on any online list or discussion, including this one.
Finally, before you freak out and start wondering why I did not mention your bank, realize that it is impossible to mention every bank in the world.
The examples here are representative, not comprehensive.
Categories of Top Investment Banks
Here are the rough categories:
- Bulge Bracket Investment Banks (BBs) – JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs, and Morgan Stanley; Bank of America and Citi; Barclays and UBS; Deutsche Bank is questionable.
- In-Between-a-Banks (IBABs) – Wells Fargo, RBC, and many European, Asian, and Canadian banks, such as HSBC, BNP Paribas, Mizuho, Nomura, BMO, and CITIC.
- Elite Boutique Investment Banks (EBs) – Centerview, Evercore, Guggenheim (??), Lazard, Moelis, Perella Weinberg, PJT Partners (formerly Blackstone), Qatalyst, and Rothschild (only in Europe).
There’s some disagreement over the exact firms in this list, so I’ve added question marks or notes after ones with uncertainty. See the detailed article for more on this topic.
- Up-and-Coming Elite Boutique Investment Banks (UCEBs) – LionTree Advisors, Zaoui & Co., Robey Warshaw, Lakeside Capital Advisers, and Dyal Co.
- Middle Market Banks (MMs) – Baird, Brown Gibbons Lang & Commpany, Cowen, Harris Williams, Houlihan Lokey, Janney, Jefferies, JMP, Lincoln International, Macquarie, Needham, Oppenheimer, Piper Sandler, PJ Solomon, Raymond James, Stephens, Stifel, Truist, Wedbush, and William Blair.
This list is also a bit controversial because there’s a thin line between “boutique” and “middle market.” Also, I have no idea where Macquarie should go.
- Industry-Specific Boutiques (ISBs) – Leerink (Healthcare), Ziegler (Healthcare, Senior Living, and Education), FT Partners (Fintech), Raine Group (kind of – it’s also a merchant bank), Allen & Co. (TMT), Seabury (Transportation/Maritime/Aerospace & Defense), Telsey Advisory Group (Consumer/Retail), and dozens of others.
- Regional Boutique Banks (RBs) – Too many to list; if a bank operates in only 1-2 locations or smaller non-financial centers and works on very small deals, it’s in this category.
- Other Banks (Merchant Banks, Hybrid Firms, and KPOs) – BDT Capital Partners, Tudor Pickering Holt & Co., Raine Group, Three Ocean Partners, and Lepe Partners.
Particularly in the “In-Between-a-Bank” (IBAB) category, I have left out many names because I don’t want to list 50+ banks.
So, please do not leave angry comments wondering why Société Générale, Crédit Agricole, or the other Big 5 Canadian banks are not there.
In addition to the detailed articles on BB, EB, and MM banks, we also cover boutique investment banks in a separate article.
How Are the Top Investment Banks Different?
Size is the most obvious difference, but that’s not the best way to think about these categories: Many tiny firms end up working on mega-deals these days.
Instead, you can use these four criteria:
- Deal Size: Does the bank work on deals worth less than $100 million USD? Or mostly deals below or above $1 billion?
- Geography: Do they have a presence only in one city or region? Are they global? Are they strong in Europe but not North America or Asia?
- Services Provided: Do they only advise on M&A deals, or do they also work on debt (DCM) and equity (ECM) deals? Do they also do Restructuring? Or does the bank focus on private placements?
- Exit Opportunities: Where do bankers at this firm move to afterward? Are mega-fund PE exits common, or are middle-market funds, other banks, or normal companies more common?
There are some other differences as well – for example, you often earn more at elite boutiques than at bulge bracket banks. But it’s easiest to start with the four criteria above.
Bulge Bracket Investment Banks (BBs)
These are the largest global banks that operate in all regions and offer all services – M&A, equity, debt, and others – to clients.
They also have sales & trading, research, wealth management, and all the other financial services you could imagine.
They tend to work on the largest deals, usually those above $1 billion USD in size, though they sometimes go lower than that depending on the market.
Over time, a split has developed in this group, with the “Top 3” (GS, MS, and JPM) performing better than the rest.
The European banks have also moved away from investment banking and toward wealth management and other businesses, which has hurt their prospects.
Some people even argue that firms like UBS shouldn’t be on this list anymore, but I’m not sure I would go that far , especially after its acquisition of Credit Suisse (Deutsche Bank is a different story; it is borderline).
Analysts at the bulge bracket banks get into private equity firms and hedge funds of all sizes, but they’re more likely to do so if they’re in non-ECM/DCM teams, such as strong industry groups, M&A, or Leveraged Finance.
In-Between-a-Banks (IBABs)
These firms are often strong in one specific product, such as debt, but don’t do as much business in other areas.
They also tend to work on smaller deals, overall, than the bulge brackets, but these deals are still bigger than what middle market and boutique banks work on.
Wells Fargo is the classic example of the “In-Between-a-Bank”: Technically, it’s not a bulge bracket, but it’s also not a boutique or middle market firm.
It’s strong in debt and ranks among the top banks there, but doesn’t do as much M&A advisory business.
Many of these firms also tend to be strong in one region, such as Europe for the French banks or Japan for the Japanese banks, but don’t do as well elsewhere.
You can win the traditional exit opportunities coming from these banks, but it’s safe to say that fewer Analysts get into the largest buy-side funds, and more tend to move to other banks, smaller funds, or normal companies.
Elite Boutique Investment Banks (EBs)
These firms, with a few exceptions, focus on M&A Advisory and Restructuring rather than debt and equity, and they often work on the same deals that the bulge brackets advise on.
You’ll see at least one elite boutique on almost any huge M&A deal in the U.S. or Europe.
Despite that, these firms are still much smaller than the bulge brackets.
If a BB hires hundreds of new Analysts each year, an EB might hire only a few dozen.
Unlike true regional boutiques, the EBs have a presence in many regions, but often they are strongest in one place.
Rothschild, for example, is easily an elite boutique in Europe but isn’t quite as strong in the U.S.
Many Analysts from elite boutiques exit into the largest PE funds and hedge funds, and the success percentage tends to be high simply because there are fewer applicants.
However, there’s also a lot of variation in this category: Evercore, Lazard, and Moelis Analysts seem to place well, while there’s more uncertainty around some of the others.
Also, some of these firms place a heavy emphasis on internal promotions and keeping bankers “for life,” which makes exit opportunities tougher.
Up-and-Coming Elite Boutiques (UCEBs)
The main difference between UCEBs and EBs is that the UCEBs have much less of a track record.
They’re often founded by high-profile rainmakers at BBs or EBs, and they frequently work with their previous clients.
They’re even smaller than elite boutiques, they have less of a geographic presence, and they’re more dependent on a key individual(s).
Sometimes these firms fizzle out, but they can also keep growing and eventually become true elite boutiques.
Exit opportunities are unclear because of the lack of data. It seems possible to win traditional PE/HF roles, but the probability is lower.
Middle Market Banks (MMs)
Similar to the bulge bracket banks, middle market banks also offer a variety of services and have a wide geographical presence, but they work on smaller deals.
Most deals are below $1 billion, though this varies by the bank.
The strongest middle market bank, by far, is Jefferies, which now earns annual investment banking revenue close to some of the bulge brackets and far above any other MM bank.
You could easily make a case that Jefferies shouldn’t even be in this category, but that’s a debate for a different day.
You can exit to private equity firms and hedge funds coming from these firms, but it’s more difficult because Analysts at the BBs, IBABs, and EBs tend to get priority.
Also, the buy-side recruiting process at mid-sized-to-large-funds moves insanely quickly, and it’s tough to get “plugged in” if you’re at a smaller bank.
So, the most likely exit opportunities from here are:
- Smaller private equity fund or hedge fund that uses off-cycle recruiting.
- Corporate development or corporate finance at a normal company.
- Another bank, usually a larger one.
Industry-Specific Boutique Banks (ISBs)
As the name suggests, these firms focus on one specific industry, such as healthcare or FIG, and often on M&A advisory deals within that industry.
These firms have a smaller geographical footprint than the others above, and they work on smaller deals than the BBs, IBABs, and EBs.
Deals are often comparable in size to the ones that MM banks work on, but that varies widely based on the reputation of the boutique.
As one specific example, Leerink, a top healthcare boutique, has mostly worked on equity and M&A deals for less than $500 million USD, with a few larger M&A deals.
That is more like “upper-middle-market” territory.
It’s tougher to win traditional exit opportunities from these banks, as they tend to favor internal promotions and keeping Analysts and Associates around for the long term.
Regional Boutique Banks (RBs)
Finally, these firms are very small and tend to operate in only one city, or perhaps a few cities outside of major financial centers.
They don’t necessarily focus on one industry, but they often focus on a small set of industries; they also tend to do mostly M&A deals and private placements.
Deal sizes vary, but many of these firms work on deals worth less than $50 million USD, and sometimes ones worth less than $20-30 million.
Exit opportunities are tough if you’re at one of these banks, and advancement is also tricky because there’s often no room to advance.
I haven’t seen firsthand examples of Analysts from these firms moving directly into private equity or hedge funds, but it’s possible, in theory.
The most likely exits are larger banks, Big 4 firms, or finance roles at normal companies.
Other Categories Of Bank
Finally, there are other categories of banks.
Merchant banks, for example, operate as combined private equity firms and investment banks, offering advisory services and also investing in companies.
These firms are more common in emerging markets where people care less about conflicts of interest.
In India, “knowledge process outsourcing,” or KPO, firms do similar work for many banks.
They’ll create pitch books, crunch numbers, and do other tasks that the global banks prefer to outsource.
There are also hybrid firms that do a combination of consulting and investment banking, especially in areas like Restructuring.
If you want to work at a large bank or win a traditional exit opportunity, you’re better off going to a real investment bank than one of these firms.
There are some exceptions to that rule, but mostly in specialized fields (e.g., turnaround consulting can lead to Restructuring roles at elite boutiques).
So, Which Top Investment Bank Should You Work At?
That’s completely the wrong question.
You should be asking which banks you have a realistic chance of working at.
For example, if you just graduated, you earned a 3.2 GPA (or a 2:2 with low A-Levels in the U.K.), and you only became interested in investment banking last month, you are not going to win offers at bulge brackets, elite boutiques, or middle market banks.
You’ll have to target regional boutiques or small PE firms that might be open to off-cycle interns.
Or, maybe you skip banking altogether and go for independent valuation firms, Big 4 firms, or related roles.
On the other hand, if you’re at Princeton, you have a 4.0 GPA, and you’ve done two previous boutique IB internships, then you have a good chance at everything above.
If you have the option to do so, it’s almost always best to work at an elite boutique or bulge bracket because you get the best deal experience and exit opportunities.
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learn moreWorking at an IBAB is also a solid option, and even MM banks are fine if you win offers there.
You have to be careful with Up-and-Coming Elite Boutiques (UCEBs); I’m not sure I would recommend them over the others for entry-level roles.
Similarly, you have to be careful with Industry-Specific Boutiques (ISBs) and Regional Boutiques (RBs) if your main motivation is the exit opportunity.
In particular, I’ve seen a lot of students suffer after joining RBs because the role often changes, deal flow dries up, or their compensation is cut.
If you have competitive offers from both a bulge bracket and an elite boutique, here’s how you can make a decision:
How certain are you that you want to stay in the finance industry for the long term?
- Not That Certain – Take the BB offer because it will give you more options outside of finance; the brand-name recognition is much stronger.
- Very Certain – It’s more of a toss-up, so you have to be more specific:
- You Want to Stay in IB for the Long Term – It’s almost always better to take the EB offer because you’ll earn higher compensation and get more interesting work.
- You Want to Move into Private Equity or Hedge Funds ASAP – It depends on your specific group. An M&A offer at an EB easily beats an ECM offer at a BB, but if you’re deciding between two strong industry groups, make a decision based on the people.
After running this site for over a decade, my opinion is that most people don’t know what they want to do.
Especially in the last few years, I’ve seen a lot of students plan to go to mega-funds, but then get burned out after six months in IB and quit to join tech companies instead.
The Bottom Line: Even though elite boutiques do offer many advantages over bulge brackets, you’re still better off going to a BB unless you’re very, very certain of your long-term plans.
For example, if you’ve done four off-cycle and summer internships at banks of different sizes and concluded that IB is your passion, sure, accept the EB offer.
But if you’ve only done one 3-month summer internship, and you have EB and BB offers, you take less of a chance by going to the bulge bracket.
Got Rankings for the Top Investment Banks?
Most people spend far too much time “ranking” banks and not enough time thinking about where they have a realistic chance of working – or what their long-term plans are.
It’s good to know how the banks differ, but it’s even better to know what fits in best with your plans and what the opportunities from each bank look like.
Do that, and you’ll quickly realize the silliness of rankings.
As soon as you finish your current list, that is.
For Further Learning
If you like this article, you might be interested in The Private Equity Associate: Pathway to Glory, or Glorified Monkey?
Finally, if you want help breaking into the best investment bank you can, our friends at Wall Street Mastermind might be able to help you out.
Their students have gotten offers from every bulge bracket and elite boutique bank on Wall Street, and their coaches include a former Global Head of Recruiting at three different large banks.
They provide personalized, hands-on guidance through the entire networking and interview process – and they have a great track record of results for their clients.
You can book a free consultation with them to learn more.
You might also be interested in “Should You Delay Your Graduation to Improve Your Chances of Getting into Investment Banking?” or Why Did a Bank Just Rescind Your Job Offer, and What Can You Do About It?
About the Author
Brian DeChesare is the Founder of Mergers & Inquisitions and Breaking Into Wall Street. In his spare time, he enjoys lifting weights, running, traveling, obsessively watching TV shows, and defeating Sauron.
Free Exclusive Report: 57-page guide with the action plan you need to break into investment banking - how to tell your story, network, craft a winning resume, and dominate your interviews
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what do you think about Moelis Boston ?
Hi Brian, thanks for the article. Just wondering how would you classify MUFG (the Japanese bank) – its presence in the US and in Europe?
Hi Brian,
Do you have any thoughts on lateraling to Citi power vs JPM energy, power, metals vs Jefferies TMT in London for an associate
Considerations:
1) Power energy transition vs tech (software/digital infra)
2) BB vs MM for future exits
Thanks!
Citi or JPM are almost always better bets just because they are bulge brackets. I don’t know specifically the strengths of these two groups, but JPM sounds like it has a broader focus, so that is probably better (maybe check a few recent league tables).
Scotiabank or Lincoln or Solomon?
Not sure there is a huge difference between those 3 unless you’re in Canada, in which case you should always pick one of the Big 5/6 Canadian banks (Scotiabank here).
If this is for a U.S. role, you’d have to pick based on location, team fit, group, etc., and which one best matches your goals.
Hey Brian,
Was wondering what’s your view on Scotiabank in the U.S. and what tier/category would Scotiabank fall in (within U.S.)?
Also, how difficult do you think it would be to lateral from Scotiabank to a BB after a year?
Thanks!
Strong in Canada but less so in the U.S. Not sure of the ranking offhand, but somewhere in the middle market range maybe? You can always lateral to a larger bank, but it depends on market/hiring conditions at the time and how much deal experience you get.
Moelis NY for Generalist SA or JPM SA(Go through placement)(Reneg Moelis)
I would not recommend reneging on Moelis NY to accept a JPM offer. Yes, you could argue JPM is “better” for various reasons (brand name, larger firm/network, etc.), but I don’t think it’s worth the risk/downside in this case.
Wells Fargo charlotte or bmo nyc? Have offers from both
I would probably pick BMO just because of the location / access to other lateral and exit opportunities.
Hello, I have an offer for Stifel (Baltimore), BMO (NYC), Solomon, and KippsDeSanto. Any suggestions or feedback. I just want the best Exits.
I would probably pick BMO out of those since it’s the largest firm, and the NYC location will give you benefits. But it’s not hugely different vs. Stifel or Solomon. Exits are probably better, but not a night-and-day difference.
What would your opinion be? BMO Capital Markets or Nomura
I don’t think there’s a huge difference, so this would come down to the region, individual office and people there, etc. For example, BMO is the best for metals/mining and is especially strong in Canada. Nomura might be better for other sectors/regions.
Hi Brian,
I wanted to get your thoughts on my chances at breaking into IB for BB, EB, and MM.
here is my profile –> 2nd year at UMich Ross. I am in finance club and a business frat and have leadership positions in both. Last summer, I worked in a finance role for a tech start-up (did a lot of market research), but also got some exposure to pre-revenue VC modeling. I have a 3.7 GPA and have done a decent amount of networking already, but plan to do much more in January.
I think your chances should be good. The main issue is that you have to be really careful with the open dates and deadlines – as firms like Guggenheim and DB already started their 2025 internship recruiting! But as long as you’re monitoring these dates and feel comfortable with the main fit and technical questions, you should be in good shape.
Do you do private counseling?
What do you mean by “private counseling”? We do offer coaching and resume editing, including networking action plans, LinkedIn editing, and help with your story and personal pitch.
https://mergersandinquisitions.com/investment-banking-resume-review/#packages
Hi Brian,
What are your thoughts on Tidal Partners (Centerview spin-off)?
They’re so new that it’s hard to say much. I expect they’ll probably be in the “Up and Coming Elite Boutique” category eventually. It usually takes at least a few years for a new bank’s reputation to settle.
Hi Brian,
Can I get a quick assessment of which banks I should target? UK 2:1 from a target spanish school (ICADE) in my final year. I am currently in a spanish MM PE firm and previously have done 2 other summer internships in accounting firms. Really want to go into IB in london but not sure of my chances.
Thanks!
I think you should have a good chance at the top banks (bulge brackets and elite boutiques) in London. Experience in a place like Spain is sometimes “discounted” in NY/London, but not by as much as experience in an actual emerging market. And you have 3 internships, 1 directly in PE, with a target university.
Hey Brian, would you consider Washu Olin a target/semi target school (for undergrad)? Curious about what banks/tiers would be within reach with a 3.8gpa there. Thanks!
Please see: https://mergersandinquisitions.com/investment-banking-target-schools/
It’s a “semi-target” according to the list on this site. So you can potentially win offers at most banks, but you need to start earlier and put more effort into networking.
Hi Brian – how would you rank Deutsche Bank IB, Wells Fargo IB, Citi S&T for IB lateral/PE exits
DB is the best among all those, followed by WF, followed by Citi S&T. DB still has a better name/reputation than WF, at least within IB deals, and while Citi is actually the “best” of these banks, S&T is much less relevant for IB lateral hires and PE exits. In fact, I’d say a PE exit might be borderline impossible coming from a pure S&T role (though you can find rare exceptions…).
What are the Exit Opportunities form Qatalyst?
The same as the exit opportunities from any other elite boutique bank, but with a tech focus. Search this site for “exit opportunities”
Hey Brian,
Thank you for answering to everyone. As a quant I have a choice to make between BNP (EU) and Barclays (UK). I’m not as aware of things as I’m new to finance, but BNP seems bigger and more quant focused than Barclays, although the prestige / salary might be somewhat better at Barclays ?
I really don’t know, sorry, because we don’t track quant roles by bank. This site mostly focuses on deal/client-based advisory roles with only a few articles on quant careers. If you’ve found that BNP is bigger and more quant-focused, it is probably a better bet than Barclays, though Barclays has a better brand name reputation, at least globally.
PWP M&A or JPM Generalist offer? Interested to hear about prestige perception and exit opps within finance.
As with any other BB vs. EB decision, this one is a matter of options outside the finance industry (JPM is better) vs. options within finance (similar) vs. culture/lifestyle/interesting work (PWP is probably better).
Hi Brian, no idea who to ask since it’s such a niche question, hopefully you’re still reading these and you don’t mind answering.
DCM Summer at IBAB or IB Summer at MM? (Same location)
Profile:
-Target school
-Junior year
-Unsure on future goals
Common sense says the MM to not be limited to DCM, but perhaps the IBAB gives a better potential platform to BB IB / lateral groups in time to start as fresh FT AN1 right after graduation? Or would
both offers be equal in this regard?
Thanks
I would probably favor the MM bank for the reasons you mentioned. I think it also depends a bit on which specific IBAB and which MM bank. For example, Jefferies (easily the strongest MM) beats something like Mizuho, but it’s a closer comparison with, say, Wells Fargo or RBC, depending on the location. And WF or RBC would beat something like Piper Sandler.
Thanks a bunch!
Hi Brian,
How would you choose between generalist programme at Barclays HK VS ECM at BofA HK?
Thanks!
You generally do not want to be in ECM unless you’re aiming for a better lifestyle / reduced hours (and I’m not even sure how true those are in HK). You don’t do much modeling work, and transaction experience is better in other groups. So most people would tell you to pick Barclays in this case.
Brian,
I’m agree with you, can i ask you which banks/sector target? Undergraduate in Accounting & Finance (2:2) now I’ve started Msc Corporate Finance from Russel group University.
I don’t have any experience in the field.
Thanks
If you have no experience, you should really start with off-cycle internships at smaller/boutique firms. You’ll see some examples if you search this site.
This is a fantastic article.
Is there a specific investment bank you would recommend to assist with the acquisition of a proprietary artificial intelligence platform that has various applications with the most obvious one in healthcare? There is already a successful track record in that sector.
Deal size would be around $40mm of equity.
I can’t recommend one, sorry. We focus on careers and recruiting for students on this site, not comparing different banks in terms of industry or client focus.
I recently secured my junior year internship summer analyst position (summer 2023) at a large US bulge bracket for Sales & Trading in NYC. However, after getting experience in a small investment banking/Private equity company this summer, I’ve realized I want to pursue IB.
How can I make the switch? Do I recruit for a full time position in IB? Or do I try to switch to IB internally at my bulge bracket? Is there anyway I can try to switch my internship division at my bulge bracket from S&T to IB before next year (Summer 2023)?
It tends to be quite difficult to switch divisions or banks during/after summer internships because everyone else is trying to do the same thing, and banks don’t necessarily know who will get or accept return offers yet.
So… you usually have a higher chance of doing this if you accept the FT offer, work for 6-12 months, and then transfer internally to IB.
You could network around with people in different divisions and try to switch before that, but it’s always difficult right after an internship. If you want to improve your chances, work on a sales desk rather than a highly technical/specialized trading desk so you can say you have client/sales experience.
Hi Brian. What insight could you give to joining a Financial Sponsors Group at a BB. Does working directly in an FSG role with PE firms give good experience and chances for a PE exit after two years?
I would recommend reading our coverage of FSG here:
https://mergersandinquisitions.com/financial-sponsors-group-fsg/
Hi Brian, this article was super helpful for me. I was wondering if you had insight into the best groups at Barclays, NY to join in terms of PE exits after two years. Also, I was separately wondering if you had any advice on which groups to join considering other factors such as culture, work-life balance, and bonuses.
So we don’t rank specific groups/firms for exit opportunities or the other factors because all of that can change very quickly (months, not years) based on senior banker headcount and turnover. And I have no interest or desire to track this information or to pay someone to do it.
The “best” groups are the broadest ones that give you the most exposure to different types of deals. Tech, healthcare, industrials, consumer/retail, etc. Avoid FIG, real estate, and energy. Others are in the middle.
Would you group LevFin in the “middle”
You are over-thinking this, but yes, in most cases.
Hi Brian, thank you so much for this post and continuing to answer everyone’s follow up questions! I was wondering how you would rank the following banks considering exit opps (I know it heavily varies by group within but in general): JPMorgan, Bank of America, Barclays, Credit Suisse, Jefferies.
JPM followed by BAML followed by Barclays and CS, then Jefferies… but there may be exceptions for certain groups/regions.
Would Citi be between CS and Jefferies or between BAML and Barclays?
https://mergersandinquisitions.com/bulge-bracket-banks/
Hi Brian,
If you were to rank ECM, infrastructure&utility, healthcare, and TMT at DB LDN, what would it be?
Also which of these has the best skillset built for VC/PE/HF? (i know levfin is probably the best haha)
Many thanks,
Emma
Healthcare/TMT, followed by infrastructure/utilities, followed by ECM.
Hi Brian,
I’m currently in between Solomon Partners, Macquarie and Deutsche Bank for IB, all in NYC. Do you have any advice on which to pick?
DB is the best in terms of brand name/reputation/exit opportunities, even after those have fallen over the years vs. the other bulge brackets. So unless you have a very specific reason for wanting one of the others, such as a specific connection or group at one of them, DB seems like the clear winner here.
Hi Brian,
How would you compare Houlihan Lokey Tech M&A in SF vs FT Partners in NYC for A1? Would slightly prefer to be in NYC, enjoy the tech/fintech space, don’t necessarily know if I want to stay in IB >2 years but also not entirely interested in PE longterm/as an exit either.
Thanks!
So I think the biggest issue here is FT Partners’ “reputation” (I’m sure you can Google them to find out more). Let’s just say it’s not for everyone.
Being in NYC is better for exits/other opportunities, but you’ll probably have a better lifestyle at HL, or at least have a bit more free time to research other opportunities. I don’t think either one gives you much of an advantage for PE, but FTP is far better for anything in tech/fintech.
But I think you have to decide mostly based on what you want the next 2 years of your life to be like (moderately crazy vs. extremely crazy), and the location.
Hey Brian, I recently received offers from both Moelis Boston and Evercore Houston. I don’t know what I want to do long term, and I have no preference with regards to tech vs. energy and Boston vs. Houston. I’d love to hear your perspective on which offer would come with the most robust array of exits.
If you want to keep your options open, Moelis Boston is better because it’s not as narrowly focused on one industry as pretty much all groups in Houston are.
Thanks, Brian – appreciate your thoughts. I understand BBs are better if I’m looking to exit finance at some point, but which of these two options would be better? Which would have me in a better position if I tried to re-recruit for FT?
Moelis and Evercore are both elite boutiques, not bulge brackets, so options outside finance are about the same. The issue with Houston is the huge energy focus. You stand a better chance of winning generalist roles if you’re in a generalist team for any type of non-energy recruiting.
Thanks so much Brian. Appreciate your time.
Hello Brian,
Currently an incoming summer analyst at Lazard. I want to recruit for top tier PE firms such as Apollo, KKR, Blackstone, Carlyle, etc. I am curious as to what groups at Lazard are typically the best bet in regard to exit opportunities at these firms. Thanks.
Sorry, we don’t rank specific groups within banks such as Lazard. The best bet is usually to join a fairly broad, non-specialized industry group such as tech/TMT, healthcare, industrials, or consumer/retail that works on all types of deals.
Hi Brian and readers (anyone can answer),
I’ve been working during 3 years at MM boutique (Clearwater International) and now I have received 2 offers and I don’t know which one to choose: i) one as senior analyst at BB (UBS) or ii) as M&A Director at a portco of a mid market PE fund, where the salary and bonus is below BB but they’d give me sweet equity, and being part of the board.
Note: I would like to launch my startup in 1/2 years from now, so I don’t see myself in the finance industry long term.
Which one would you choose?
I would go with option #2 if you don’t want to work in the finance industry long-term, as you’ll probably learn more about operations there.
Jefferies doesn’t fit in its category with players like Baird, HL and Piper. Based on its recent deal volume / size, and most importantly the fee share of the market – it’s fair to say they are more EB-like these days in the same league competing with Moelis / Lazard / Evercore.
I agree that it’s far above the other MM banks, but I don’t really think you can call it an “elite boutique,” either. It’s more diversified than most of the EBs but still works on smaller deals, on average, but it still generates much less in fees than the BB banks. I don’t know, maybe we need a special category here.
Hi Brian,
I did a top 15 MBA shortly after undergrad (humanities major) and am now a first year analyst at a top MM. I am learning the ropes well but would like to leverage the MBA to try to go A2A in a year or shortly after. Do you think this is possible and do you have any tips for a situation like this?
Sorry, I’m not really sure of the dynamics there, as it’s exceptionally rare to do an MBA and then join as a Year 1 Analyst. But since banks now recruit people on a faster timeline, I think it would be fairly easy to move up as long as you perform well. See: https://mergersandinquisitions.com/analyst-to-associate/
Hi Brian,
Thanks for the great article, very helpful for me as I’m quite clueless.
I have a return offer from an IBAB in London. I’m applying to FT roles at BBs and EBs, but do you think I should consider MMs too? Are they better than IBABs?
Honestly no clue what I want to do after IB; I kind of just stumbled into my SA at the IBAB.
Thanks
They’re about the same. If you’re getting good response rates from BBs and EBs, I don’t think you need to apply to MM banks as well.
Hey Brian. This is super helpful. Question for you. I’m a M7 MBA student. I come from non-finance background but looking to get more into buyside (preferably asset management/HF). I’m weighing offers from an EB in TMT M&A and a management consulting offer in TMT at a top firm. Any guidance?
EB in TMT M&A is far superior if you are interested in any buy-side roles. Management consulting is marginally useful for private equity but not useful for AM/HF roles.
Hey Brian, thoughts on Centerview vs Evercore vs GS for Associate level? 100% staying within finance and not interested in corp dev type of exits.
Evercore is the best, reputation-wise, with Centerview close behind (not enough to really make a difference, so go by the team/people). GS is not ideal if you want to stay in finance.
Thoughts on Guggenheim Tech (Chicago) vs PWP M&A (NYC)? Heard Guggenheim is top paying on the street and growing rapidly. Very keen on doing UMM PE after banking though.
Hmm, probably about the same, but you’re right that Guggenheim is growing quickly and offering higher pay. So unless you really want to be in NY, Guggenheim may be better.
How would you weigh offers from CS NY, William Blair Chicago, and BAML LA? CS is generalist offer but will most likely end up in GIG or Sponsors due to MD connections. Blair would be Industrial tech or C&R. BAML is country coverage but lots of Emerging Growth (MM) deals and financing. Not entirely sure what I want to do, but hoping to stay in banking or exit to UMM PE in LA.
BAML LA is the best from a brand/reputation perspective, but the actual deal experience may be worse/less interesting than the others. If you want to do any kind of PE in LA specifically, though, BAML LA is probably the best option. CS is below BAML reputation-wise these days, and CS NY to PE in LA will be a more difficult move. William Blair is a fine firm as well, but below the others in terms of PE recruiting.
Hi Brian,
My goal is to recruit for Megafund Private Equity associate roles. I am currently deciding between Evercore M&A (no industry specified, likely generalist at first, then later asked to specialize) vs Goldman FIG for a full time analyst position. I have heard that FIG can pigeonhole you, but GS FIG seems to buck that trend. Which do you think recruits better into Private Equity Megafunds? I have also heard positive things about Evercore’s culture and compensation at the analyst level when compared to GS, do you have any insight there?
I also have an offer from B of A FIG, but would assume that B of A does not recruit as well.
Thanks.
Note: all are for NYC
I would go with Evercore. Yes, GS FIG is in a bit of a different category than other FIG teams, but there is still a chance of getting “stuck” there and not being able to recruit that well outside FIG. The Analyst experience will probably be better at Evercore as well.
Hi Brian,
Thanks for this article. I am wondering how you would choose Mizuho IBD in NY vs DB IBD in NY? Mizuho has lots of growth potentials but DB is more prestigious. I would love to hear about your opinion. Thanks!
I would still say DB if you are deciding based on exit opportunities or post-banking career options.
Thanks for the reply. What do you think about the ranks for Japanese banks Nomura, Mizuho, and SMBC?
I don’t have a strong view, but in the U.S. market, they’re lesser-known names and therefore not as good for exit opportunities.
Hi Brian,
Great article, very helpful. I am currently a masters in finance student at a semi target graduating this spring with a 3.6 GPA and currently interning at a middle market PE shop. I am looking to get into investment banking and would prefer to stay in M&A work. Where do you think my best chances are?
Probably middle market to bulge bracket banks. You may not be 100% competitive at the top 3, but there’s no harm in trying (and the others should be within reach).
Hi Brian, fantastic website you have here. Was wondering if you could give a bit of a description of RBC’s position in London as it seems to be growing and it looks like a great upcoming investment bank?
Sorry, don’t know enough about it to say. Yes, RBC is a growing bank, but it takes time for rankings to change and for headhunters to adapt. UBS is still considered a bulge bracket bank, even though it hasn’t really been at that level for over a decade. So… RBC’s reputation may change, but it may not be soon enough for you to take advantage of it.
Okay, great point. Thanks so much for the reply!
This site is such a wealth of information! I am starting at a T10-T15 ranked MBA program in the fall. I have just over 4 years of experience in the government as a glorified secretary working in the procurement department. Will the classes, clubs, and summer internship next year be enough to overcome this and get a full time position at a BB upon graduation? Thank you!
I think it will be tough unless you get a pre-MBA internship. Otherwise, you’ll be up against people with more relevant work experience and even some who worked in IB before. And the key question is whether you can get a summer internship that converts into a FT offer, as FT offers outside of summer internships are quite rare.
Brian,
How significant do you think the difference in exit opportunities are from a firm like Blair/Baird/HL vs UBS/DB/RBC (assuming you want to go into PE). How do the exit opps from these firms compare to Wells Fargo or Jefferies?
Thank you for sharing your insights on here. Really enjoy the articles.
They are significant vs. actual MM firms like Blair/Baird/HL. Wells Fargo is better than the actual MM firms (again, a significant difference I would say) but maybe not that much different than UBS/DB/RBC. Jefferies is somewhere in the middle maybe.
Hi Brian,
Great article as always thanks!
What separates out an Elite Boutique like Rothschild (NMR) from a US MM like Baird/Blair/HL? It feels like the latter are making better headway in Europe than NMR are in the US. Do you think we’ll see the MMs surpass some elite boutiques like NMR as a result?
It’s mostly based on the average deal size. It’s possible that the “rankings” will change over time. I don’t know, to be honest, I’m very bored of this topic (imagine writing about ranking the banks and GPA rounding for 15 years), so I’m probably not the best source.
Hey Brian thank you for the article.
I am in the 4th year of studies at university of hong kong and I am about to get an internship offer at BNP paribus hong kong. Which part (e.g. derivatives, project financing, etc) do you think I will benefit the most if I want to eventually be an analyst in the investment bank or fund manager at asset management? (Please note that after majoring both economics and finance I know I have an interest in this industry but I do not know specifically what I would like to do there. But because this internship decision should be made quickly or I might miss it , I emailed you for an insight)
Also suppose I get an offer at Bain capital, which one do you think would be more competitive in terms of my career? Bain or BNP Paribus? If Bain is stronger than BNP, what role should I aim to do in Bain?
I have done three internship until now: KPMG consulting to investment bank (digital transformation), IR team at one of the top firms in Korea, and now at fixed income securities & project financing team in the middle-size securities firm. I am thinking of spending about 6 months so I really want to make a right choice. If you can give some advice with your insight, it would help me out a lot. Thank you and I will be looking forward to your reply.
Regards,
Dohyun
Bain Capital is probably a better bet for an internship, at least if you’re considering jobs worldwide. But I’m not really sure what you’re asking in the first part of the question. At BNP specifically, the groups most related to IB are the best for your goals. Project Finance is OK, but actual industry groups or even capital markets teams would be closer.
Hi Brian,
I’m attending Booth at University of Chicago doing an MBA by night and working in operations during the day. I have a military background as I was a submarine officer for 6 years. I’m trying to get into Investment Banking and I’m curious what you think is realistic for a person in my situation, with a background in engineering and no serious financial background to speak of. I’m taking as many finance courses as I can at Booth and I’m shooting to get an internship in the summer of ’22, but do you think I’d have a shot at EB or BB investment banks?
Potentially, yes. Take a look at some of our coverage of other readers from military backgrounds who got in:
https://mergersandinquisitions.com/military-to-investment-banking/
https://mergersandinquisitions.com/military-investment-banking/
what about BNY? and what about corinthian? also curious your thoughts on some of the local (what I consider, EB), in UK / aus / CN / HK.. happy to provide a list
I don’t have a strong view on BNY, sorry. Never even heard of Corinthian. We don’t rank banks or go into details on individual banks, as that would be a full research project and outside the scope of what a free site can offer.
Thank you Brian!
Hello Brian
I am currently a Junior at University of Michigan-Dearborn (non-target school), however University of Michigan-Ann Arbor is a target school (I am not sure if this helps my case since I attend the sister college). I have a cumulative GPA of 3.1 (previously and Engineering Major) and a Major GPA of 3.7. I had a consulting internship in 2019 and my client was Coach. My age is on the older side as well. I had a rough life between the ages of 18-23.
I become very interested in Banking about two years ago and switched my major to Finance while minoring in Computer Science. I was also wondering if I missed my window, since I am an older Undergraduate student. I have managed to however change my image and have been a model student for the past 2.5 years. I plan to boost my cumulative GPA to a 3.3 by end of this fall term, and my major GPA will be around a 3.9. I was wondering if I should land a Finance Job and try again after earning an MBA (Top 20 college) to move directly into an Associate level. However, I would much rather go the Undergraduate route.
What banks do you think I would have the best success rate of landing an internship in Spring 2021; given my past and credentials. I plan to eventually move into Private Equity and I would love your insight regarding this dilemma. Thank you for your time and effort.
The problem is that summer internship recruiting for 2021 is already over at the large banks since it starts a year in advance now. I think you should probably aim for something like business valuation or corporate banking or corporate finance, win a full-time offer there, and then move into IB from one of those roles. Another option might be a Master’s in Finance degree from a top school after ~1 year of work experience.
The MBA should be your last resort because it’s expensive and time-consuming and probably not necessary.
Hey Brian!
Just in case you’re still reading these comments, Have you been able to see guys recruiting into the MMs like Pipersandler/Raymond james and then shift to any of the EBs or BBs?..
I read that BBs and EBs are too selective and don’t hire anyone from smaller shops, they only need top college grads. Sounds suspicious while I see the amount of turnover at the BBs & EBs. They can’t let a fresher masters in finance/Undergrad graduate (even from harvard) to sit on a role where they need experienced guys, and candidates can’t come from the wind so they need to go hire guys from other banks/MMs.
What’s your take?
You can answer this type of question in about 5 minutes if you do a search on LinkedIn for people who worked at those firms and then moved to larger banks (yes, it happens).
Large banks make lateral hires because people quit in the middle of the year or at random times quite frequently. Turnover is high, it’s a crappy job for most people, and banks need junior staff to churn out documents. See the article on lateral hiring here.
The idea that EB and BB banks “only” recruit top college grads is completely ridiculous because what happens if someone, or several people, quit in the middle of the year, and new grads are not available to join? Obviously, they will try to recruit other bankers or even people with deal experience at other firms.
Hi Brian, what is your outlook for the future of Piper Sandler
I don’t know enough about them to comment either way. They were both good independent firms before the merger, but no idea how the integration has gone.
Hi Brian,
Would you say any of the “Up-and-Coming Elite Boutiques” have become EBs in recent years since you first published this article?
No. We covered elite boutiques in a recent article from a few months ago here (and tweaked this article slightly in response):
https://mergersandinquisitions.com/elite-boutique-investment-banks/
I doubt any banks will make major moves in the near term (except down, maybe) due to the virus crisis and sharp economic downturn.
Hi Brian,
Nice article!
I have a question and I wanted to hear your opinion If possible.
I am a first year in Economics in germany Frankfurt Goethe.
The problem is that excpt for some Top Target Unis in Germany (e.g. Mannheim), the Exam period for the rest Like me is Not aligned to the Summer Intern Period on international levels.
I am willing to prolong my studies to do an SAI at a bank in London, because I definitely want to Work abroad after graduation. (Heard that SAI is the best way for FT conversion)
But this would mean that I would graduate half a year later in the beginning of 2023. Do you know how that could affect FT offers for me? (Haven’t Made connections with recruiters yet)
Of Course to even get there, I need to Establish myself (interns, good grades, CV polishing …etc.)
Just asking If/how it influences my entry into London IB. ^^
Thanks in advance
– Iqbal
I don’t know about the scheduling issues offhand, but the usual answer in cases like this is to find a way to delay your graduation so that it’s around the time of full-time start dates at banks and there are no issues with finishing too late or too early. You can also get extra time to prepare for recruiting and complete summer internships if you do that. And yes, you pretty much need a summer internship to win a full-time offer at most banks (some exceptions in smaller cities and less popular groups).
Deutsche Bank vs RBC Capital Markets in London for SA IBD
I would probably pick RBC at this point due to DB’s uncertain outlook.
how would you compare a top IBAB to a top MM?
I would eventually like to move to a BB and possibly leave ib for a mega private equity.
thank you :)
About the same. You will probably need to move to a BB in either case to have a shot at the biggest PE firms.
Hi Brian,
German guy here, simple question: does moving from Rothschild to BNP Paribas makes any sense? I’m targeting top MSc in Finance and i’m looking for some relevant working experience. I have an opportunity open to intern @BNP, but I can also stay @Rot&Co. Thoughts?
I don’t think so, at least not if you’re working in Europe, because Rothschild has the better reputation and higher market share in M&A deals. If you’re more interested in capital markets than M&A, then maybe BNP makes more sense since they are stronger there.
Hi Brian,
Can I ask if brand name is more important than relevance for landing BB IB interviews? This is as I am offered an IB internship at a MM and a SF internship at a more reputable bank(Non-BB). Can I ask which opportunity would increase the chances of me landing a first round Ib interview at a BB?
What do you mean by “a more reputable bank (non-BB)”? If it’s “better” than a middle-market bank, then it must be a bulge bracket or elite boutique… if it’s one of those, then yes, a Structured Finance internship is probably better than an IB internship at a MM firm.
But this also depends on your timing – if this is your 3rd year internship, the MM bank might be better if it offers a real return offer possibility and you don’t want to work in Structured Finance at all.
How much is a Parner at Perella Weinberg bringing home? There are so many i’m guessing that title is more senior than Director?
Also at a BB – what does this title even mean” /Vice Chairman, Head FIG Americas , Investment Banking/
Hard to say because so much depends on performance in a given year. But most MDs and Partners in IB make from the high six figures into the low seven figures. See the articles on compensation, the career path, etc. That is a kind of strange title, but it sounds like he’s one of the most senior people in IB and also Group Head of FIG in the Americas.
Hi Brian, and thank you for this article.
What is your view between working at a BB outside of London (more specifically in Paris) vs. working at an IBAB such as RBC in London?
Thanks for your reply!
Hmm. In most cases, you’re probably still better off at the BB just because of the brand name and reputation, though there are still far more opportunities in London (even with Brexit). But Paris is so close geographically that I’m not sure it matters too much. It’s not like choosing between LA and NYC in the US where the distance is more of a barrier.
Thanks for your answer! And as far as an EB is concerned, would it also be better to go there if I have an offer in Paris in Rothschild for example, instead of going to the IBAB in London?
Yes.
Thank you! Actually I have one last question: how would you compare Paris and London? Given that London is most often the European HQ, do you think it is better to start off in London rather than in Paris? (Assuming I have offers for two different BB, namely Citi and MS, but one in London (Citi) and the other in Paris (MS))
Yes, it’s generally better to start out in London, but who knows what will happen post-Brexit. For something like Citi in London vs. MS in Paris, I’d say Citi in London is still better for now.
Hi Brian,
As always, amazing article. Would love to hear your thoughts: What would be better? LevFin at GS/MS (If I remember correctly both have more of a capital markets LevFin desk) or M&A at an EB (Evercore/PJT/Centerview).
It depends completely on what you want to do, the region you’ll be in, etc. Elite boutiques are better if you want to stay in IB long term and about the same for exit opportunities like PE. The bulge brackets are better if you want to consider careers at normal companies as well, and you don’t mind a lot more grunt work and fairly silly tasks.
assuming end goal is MF PE (2 and out), both offers in NYC. Reading your article it seems that LevFin in general, and especially a market-oriented role like MS/GS is really bad for MF PE and M&A at a top EB would be much better. Would love your input. Thanks!
I don’t really think there will be a huge difference between MS/GS LevFin and M&A at a top EB in terms of PE recruiting, but yes, M&A at the EB is still probably a safer bet just because you never know exactly what “Leveraged Finance” will entail.
The thing is, MF PE recruiting now starts so early that deal experience is almost irrelevant and it all comes down to your bank, group, undergrad, GPA, etc. But M&A at a top EB and LevFin at GS/MS are about the same there.
Would you view moving from a MM (in a region outside of the US/ UK) to DB London positively? The role is IB Associate. Not sure if DB is still considered a good brand name (or a BB) ? Team has good deal flow, and active in M&A.
Potentially, yes, but there are serious concerns about DB’s solvency at the moment. So… buyer beware. I would not plan to stay there long.
Would you still consider Greenhill an EB?
Yes.
Hi Brian, I was wondering where you would place Santander’s corporate and investment bank on your list? I understand they are a lot smaller in this sector but would be interested to know your thoughts.
I don’t know enough about them to say much, but they’re definitely in the In-Between-a-Bank category. Like others in the list, stronger in capital markets and financing deals and not as much in M&A. But I haven’t looked at a recent league table either.
Hello Brian,
I’m a rising sophomore from a Canadian target with a 3.5 GPA. I’m currently doing a Corporate Banking role at a Chinese bank. I was looking at applying for some IB SA roles for 2020. However, I noticed that many of the BB/EB’s have strict requirements for graduation dates between 2020 and 2021. Would it be worth the effort to apply to these roles and complete their online assessments? Or would my application get filtered out right off the bat?
Also, what are some roles I should consider applying and realistically have a chance of receiving offers?
Thanks in advance.
There is no point in applying for 3rd year internships if you are going into your 2nd year. See this list for suggested steppingstone internships: https://mergersandinquisitions.com/how-to-get-into-investment-banking/#Step1
Hi Brian,
What are your thoughts on OpCo London? I know its not an ”M&A shop” but its an established (though low tier) brand name in the US and they’re now building their EMEA franchise. I have a series of IB/PE internships pre/post graduation but the market for juniors is quite bad in London atm.
Do you think is reasonable to aim for 1/2 years max as an analyst there and then lateraling to a BB/EB/solid MM or the non-IB image and possibly weak dealflow will have a negative impact?
The other option is to aim for Off Cycle roles in better places but that can be a risky bet plus it will delay my FT experience even more. FYI I’m a recent grad (<1 year) from a decent albeit semi-target school and the role in OpCo is for TMT M&A.
Thanks,
Sorry, I don’t know enough about it to give a detailed opinion. But my guess is that yes, you can probably spend 1-2 years there and then lateral to a bigger firm. If your other option is going for more off-cycle roles, I would accept the OpCo role because in EMEA they love to give people never-ending off-cycle internships that do not lead to full-time offers… you immediately put yourself in a stronger position by accepting that FT offer.
Hi Brian,
Great article. I am very interested in getting into investment banking . I have a bachelors (3.7 PGA) and MBA(3.96)in finance from a non target school. I am also on level 3 of the CFA. I am in the Philadelphia area but interested in working in NYC. I have about 10 years experience as a financial advisor. Any thoughts you have will be appreciated. Thanks
It will be extremely tough to move in if you already have an MBA and 10+ years of experience. I don’t know, maybe target boutiques or think about one of the strategies here instead:
https://mergersandinquisitions.com/too-old-for-finance/
Hey Brian, I’m going to my sophomore year in the fall and I’m preparing for a summer IB analyst internship.
Would you suggest even trying for the BB banks? Or should I just apply to the boutiques mainly?
I heard there is less competition at firms like Lazard compared to something like JPMorgan. Is that usually the case?
I would not at all say there is less competition at firms like Lazard (elite boutique) than there is at JP Morgan (bulge bracket). Fewer people apply, but there are also fewer roles available.
I can’t say whether or not you should focus on the BB banks because I don’t know your full profile (University? GPA/test scores? Previous internships? Networking to date?).
Hi Brian, would you recommend taking an SA offer from Leerink over a MM bank (Cowen) or IBAB (Nomura)? Also I’d love to hear your thoughts on Leerink in terms of its reputation and exit opportunities. Thanks!
If you want to specialize in healthcare, yes. Leerink is well-regarded in its sector. It’s just that you won’t be able to do much outside of healthcare unless you go to a generalist firm/group first. But you’re not that limited because healthcare IB experience opens up pretty much all the normal exit opportunities: VC, PE, HF/AM, CF, CD, etc.
Hi Brian, I would like your view about moving into an EB (eg. Greenhill, Moelis type) vs staying in a non-US BB (eg. Credit Suisse, Deutsche, Barclays type). This is pertaining to a mid level role (e.g. VP) outside the US. Let me know your thoughts!
Well, what do you want to do in the long term? If you want to stay in banking, yes, an EB makes more sense than a lower-tier BB, especially once you factor in the cash compensation differences. If you’re still thinking of options outside the banking/finance industry, then it’s better to stay at a bigger firm with a better-known brand name.
Hey Brian,
I am at a non-target school in southern California with a 3.7 GPA, and an upcoming summer internship in a regional boutique investment bank in San Jose, California. I also have some portfolio management experience managing 200k for my school and am curious as to what the realistic tier of banks should be that I try to get a job offer from post-grad. Obviously, a BB or Elite boutique would be ideal but is that a realistic place to dedicate my time applying?
Thanks in advance.
You should probably focus on middle-market firms with that profile, but you might have a shot at the EBs and BBs as well – however, it would be risky to spend 100% of your time on them because you’ll be up against people at target schools with internships at larger firms. I would try maybe a 50% / 50% split between MMs and EB/BB banks. It also depends a bit on your timing – if you’re early (i.e., this is your first year in university), you have a much better chance at the EBs/BBs. If not, it’s tougher just because recruiting has moved up to be so early.
I’m in a bit of a conundrum that I was hoping you could help me with. I am based in London in one of the big 4 M&A teams, however my team focuses on non-performing loan sales rather than pure M&A and we don’t do the modelling for those so moving to the buy side is out of the question.
I have applied to a range of Advisory firms and have had a BB interview and a few MMs but despite positive feedback have been passed for more traditional candidates.
I now have an offer from a west end no-name boutique headquartered in London and with two European offices. It’s a c.20 man team with mostly ex BB and EB MD’s. Deal size is $20m – $200m and it’s generalist. Base salary is similar to my big 4 one but bonuses are substantial
Shall I take this role? Will I be able to transition to a larger shop? I have c.7 years of work exp starting in audit and doing a 2 year IR stint at a large bank prior to the big 4. Thank you
Yes, I would recommend taking that role simply because it is a real investment banking role, even though it’s at a boutique firm. Simply being able to write “Investment Banking Associate” or Analyst on your CV will get you more interviews at other firms once you accept it and have been working there for a while. And you can transition to other firms later.
Great article, I am curious about what you’d say my chances are of getting into IB. I’m almost done with my MBA from a nt school in southern CA. I have a 3.6 and have worked as a financial advisor for the last 10 years (32 yrs old). I know a career change is never easy, especially into IB as a non-traditional candidate but still curious about your opinion on it – thanks
I think it will be tough because you’re at a non-target school and already have 10 years of work experience. And recruiting for MBA-level IB roles from non-target schools is extremely difficult, even more so than at the undergraduate level. So… you can do it, but you’ll probably have to focus on boutiques or other, smaller firms. See:
https://mergersandinquisitions.com/mba-investment-banking-recruiting-process/
https://mergersandinquisitions.com/mba-investment-banking-recruiting-process/
Brian, I have an offer with JPM for their corporate analyst development program. My worry is that due to the fact that it is not the IBD, I will have a difficult time transitioning into the IBD when it comes time to find a full time offer. I am waiting on a potential offer from Evercore. Both positions would be in Dallas. How difficult do you think it would be to transition into investment banking full time after completing the CADP program? If I do receive an offer from Evercore should I take that instead? By the way, I go to a Big 10, non-target, school. 3.8 GPA. Worked at a lower middle market boutique advisory firm last summer.
*Big 12
I don’t know what that means, exactly. Is it more of a corporate development role or a corporate finance role? It will be easier to switch in from corporate development and more challenging from corporate finance. Yes, if the offer from Evercore is for IB, you should definitely accept that instead.
Hi Brian,
What are your thoughts on Allen & Co? Are they a quality EB? Would an Anaylst there have good exit opportunities?
Thanks
It is a good bank, but I’m not sure if it is really an “elite boutique” (maybe?). I think you’d have exit opportunities into growth equity or VC but not PE for the most part.
Brian,
What are your thoughts on Imperial Capital and Stephens? Would those be considered MM?
Thanks.
Yes, they’re both middle-market banks, they even state that on their websites. No strong opinions either way, I’ve heard of them before but do not know details or have any insights.
Hey Brian,
Interned at top group at top BB, didn’t get return offer and have been recruiting FT. I have a potential opportunity with an industry-specific boutique that would be a perfect fit with the niche they’re in and culturally, but all the advice I’ve gotten is to maximize optionality out of school. I’m scared of shutting myself off from buyside opportunities before I’ve even left undergrad – is this a valid fear if I’m truly passionate about the sector the firm excels in?
If this is the best opportunity you have found, you should take it. If you want to move to a larger bank, and you do so relatively soon after you start (within 1-2 years), you can do so to give yourself more options. Buy-side opportunities will be more limited coming straight from this boutique, but they do exist, especially if you’re looking outside the traditional large PE funds.
Hi, Brian! I really enjoyed reading your article. I was just wondering how do you think about the rise of RBC in recent years? I feel like the bank has been expanding fast in the US recently, and I’m curious about how the bank is viewed now?
This version of this article was published just under 2 years ago, so I don’t think much has changed in that time. Yes, maybe RBC is better now, but it’s still not sending the majority of Analysts to mega-funds.
I’m curious about your characterization of Houlihan Lokey. My understanding was that they were considered an eb/ that their restructuring group is a top 3 player in the space.
Am I off base here?
And specifically, does your description of typical exit opportunities for mm banks apply to HL restructuring?
I would not say HL is an elite boutique, at least not across all groups. Their Restructuring practice is well-known, and maybe you can get into bigger funds coming from there, so maybe that is a bit different.
Hi Brian, thank you so much for your post.
What do you think about Macquarie’s ECM (namely Equity Capital Solutions team)?
With this experience and a back-office finance experience at top banks such as Morgan Stanley/GS/JPM, will I have a shot at BB bank’s IBD?
Thank you so much!
I don’t know much about it, but sure, you could potentially use IB experience at Macquarie to eventually transfer to the bulge bracket banks. It’s probably easier to do so as a lateral hire than after an internship.
Is it generally easier to make the leap from a MM to a BB once you’ve started FT (say after a year) rather than trying to leverage a return offer from your SA position for a FT offer at a BB?
Yes
Hi Brian,
What would you recommend for someone who is in there first year of school(data anylytics major)completely online (state school) since I have to work full time to keep the lights on and pay for tuition but will be finishing my entire four years worth of college in one year and a half. What can I do to prepare myself for work once I finished my undergraduate work?
I would not recommend that approach if you’re aiming for IB roles because you need time to complete internships. Without an internship, getting into IB at the undergraduate level is extremely difficult.
If you want to work in tech or something related to data science, sure, that approach is fine, but even there, you still need internships to have the best chance of winning roles.
Hi Brian,
I went to a target undergrad and a non-target masters with 1~2 years of gap in work exp in between. tech industry related. Please let me know what shots that I have in IB recruiting?
Impossible to say without knowing your grades, exact work experience, access to alumni/network, etc. But if all your experience is tech-related, I don’t think you have a great shot at IB roles since they want to see finance-related experience (Big 4, corporate finance, valuation, etc.) for lateral hires. A Master’s in Finance at a top school with relevant experience before/during the program would help, but I’m not sure if a second Master’s degree is a great idea or even possible at this stage.
Would you please list the top ones (MSF program) that can be considered?
Will my background tell a good story in tech banking? Thanks.
Potentially, yes, but again, it depends on your specific experience, university, grades, etc.
See: https://mergersandinquisitions.com/investment-banking-masters-programs/
Hi Brian,
How does an offer from Barclays and CS compare, reputation and exit ops wise, for generalist NYC?
About the same.
Hi Brian,
Would you recommend starting off your career at a top merchant bank versus a traditional good BB? Would an analyst at top merchant banks get the same looks at Megafunds and Top VCs similar to analysts at a bulge bracket? I ask because the merchant bank normally only takes associates and recruiting for them later down the line seems really difficult. Just want to have some advice on approaching this opportunity.
No, I would not. A top BB or EB is almost always a better bet. I’m sure that some analysts at top merchant banks have won mega-fund or VC offers before, but it’s far less common if you look at peoples’ LinkedIn profiles, bios on company sites, etc. And joining as an Associate makes it much harder to win traditional exit opportunities outside of corporate development.
Brian,
Lateraled from a boutique to MM bank in a better city. Does it make sense to “lateral” again to a BB in order to get a better shot at PE? Ever worth lateraling a second time or just try to recruit based on where I am now?
It might make sense – it just depends on how certain you are that you want to do PE. Even at the BB banks, a relatively low percentage (< 50%) get in. But that's still a much higher percentage than at boutique and middle-market banks, where PE exits tend to be rare. If you're open to other possibilities, like corporate development, it probably doesn't make sense to switch.
Thanks Brian. I’m pretty laser focused on PE at this point.
I’m concerned though about timing. If I wait a year I’ll be a third year analyst, after lateraling won’t I eventually be promoted to associate and take myself out of recruiting?
If you move to a BB, they will most likely knock a year off your experience.
Hi Brian,
I’m an upcoming senior at a very non target school with a 3.3 GPA. I’ve has internships in PE, PWM, Business Development and sales, but can’t seem to find my break into IB. I have few connections at BBs, MMs and RBs but have all turned up fruitless.
I completely understand my GPA is very subpar and being from a non target doesn’t help my case. What recommendations do you have?
My personal idea was to work in Business Development, get an MBA and land a role somewhere. What are your thoughts?
Thanks
A GPA in that range at a non-target school will make it very difficult to win IB roles. My recommendation would be to find a related role at a Big 4 firm, an independent valuation firm, or something like that, and then try to make a lateral move into investment banking. Planning for an MBA is premature since you might not need it to get in, and business development isn’t the most helpful field if your goal is a lateral move into IB (since it’s all sales – applicable at the senior levels but not the junior ones).
How do the Big4 firm mid-market M&A arms place among the banks?
Worse than most of the banks in this list. It’s pretty rare to go from Big 4 middle-market M&A into private equity, for example (with obvious exceptions for some regions, teams, etc.). The most likely exits are moving to an investment bank or joining the corporate finance/strategy/related team at a normal company.
Hi Brian, any view on a top BB M&A group vs an elite boutique at the mid levels (VP)? In terms of 1) getting promoted to MD and 2) marketability to other banks/corporate in the future?
Elite boutiques are probably better for promotions and general work/culture. But bulge brackets are still better if you want to pursue other corporate roles outside of banking in the future. Everyone knows Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, etc., but no one outside the finance industry really knows Moelis, Lazard, and the other EBs.
Hi Brian, I am an incoming summer analyst in the M&A group of one of the non-big 3 BBs that has been struggling a bit recently. I am considering a post-summer lateral move to either an elite boutique or one of the “big 3,” but I’m not sure if it’s worth it, especially since full-time recruiting is so much harder than internship recruiting. What would you suggest?
It’s probably not worth it unless you have really good contacts at the top 3 BBs. It takes a lot of effort to switch to another bank (https://mergersandinquisitions.com/investment-banking-accelerated-interviews/), and it’s not necessarily worth it unless you’re laser-focused on mega-fund PE.
Hi Brian,
What type of bank should I aim for if im a econ major transfer with a 3.8 attending a non target UC in southern California?
Probably boutique and middle-market firms unless you have an amazing connection(s) at the largest banks. Your GPA is fine, but being a transfer student and attending a non-target UC make it tough, especially with hyper-accelerated recruiting these days.
Hi Brian,
This upcoming summer I will be working at a BB IB group after interning at this same bank for the past two summers. I was recently placed in a niche group (e.g. FIG/RE) but was hoping to work in a more general group as I am interested in working at a private equity firm, with a strong interest in eventually focusing on healthcare. Although I do like the industry, I am not 100% sure I would want to pursue it long-term and it seems that all of the current analysts are accepting buy-side associate positions in this same industry. My question is if it would be better to after this summer try and lateral to a different group for full time (which would be tricky because of the politics) or try to recruit during the summer to another BB HC team or an EB M&A team. I don’t think that this process would be terribly difficult as I attend a top target and will have 3 good internships on my resume. However, I wonder if leaving the firm after 3 summers would be a waste of building that social capital so far or if summers are just summers and I should not consider my history with the firm as anything. Thoughts? Thank you so much in advance.
If you want to move to a different group and cannot reasonably transfer at your firm, then yes, you should interview around and try to join another team via accelerated recruiting. Turnover is so high at most banks that staying there for the long term doesn’t matter much.
Hey Brian,
What happened to the legend of ubs la article? When you click on it under search it comes to this.
We deleted it. We are deleting 80-90% of the content on the site (200 articles are already gone) because a lot of it is out of date or not that useful, and the UBS LA article fell into that category. It’s a massive amount of work to maintain and update ~700 articles, and it’s not something I am interested in doing anymore.
Hey Brian,
My goal is to end up in MM PE (Bridgepoint, PAI, Equistone, Permira, etc.). Although I would not say no to KKR and Carlyle ;)
I already have an IB internship experience from an IBAB (think ING) and will soon start an internship in a reputable MM IB (think Baird), with a possibility to get a full time offer later.
Anyway, my question is: Is it better to take a full time offer from the MM IB, or does it make sense to do another internship at a BB/EB?
In the city where I am now, getting an internship at Lazard, Jefferies, BAML, and DB would not be hard at all after having the IBAB and MM IB internships. The only thing is that I will have near 0% chances of being able to get a full time offer back form these EB/BB as their offices is very small and they are not looking for full time hires (maybe it’ll change tho). But the MM IB in which I will soon intern at is looking for full time analysts.
What would you do if you were in my shoes? Take the full time IB MM and then try to lateral? Or take the EB/BB internship right after the IB MM internship and see where it goes from there?
Thanks in advance
There is no point in taking an EB/BB internship offer and delaying your full-time start date if the EB/BB internship will not lead to a full-time offer. So, take the middle-market offer and lateral to a bigger bank if necessary.
Thanks for that Bryan,
Another quick question, although not directly related to the content of the article:
Again, considering the fact that I want to end up in a MM private equity (Bridgepoint) in 2-4 years. Is it better to be and start in a MM IB or an MBB (like Bain)? Which will have better chances in me landing the MM PE job?
Thanks!
I would still say a bank is better because it’s very tough to get into PE from consulting, even MBB, unless you target more specialized/operationally focused firms.
Brian – great article!
What about a regional bank (B. Riley financial). Can you lateral to a BB or MM as a VP after being a VP there?
Yes, but they probably won’t give you “full credit” for your experience, so you might come in at a lower level.
Hi Brian,
Great article and great site! I’m curious to hear your opinion on MBA BB Fellowship programs.
I’m leaving the public sector (7 years in financial management and already hold a masters in public policy) to go private and get an MBA. I’m learning about certain BB bank programs that offer tuition stipends, guaranteed summer and full time associate level offers if you commit early.
As someone looking for international exposure, I’m particularly drawn to the Credit Suisse MBA Fellowship- do you have any thoughts on this program or others?
I know I want to do IB for 2-3 years and then hopefully pivot into PE or VC and it seems like too great an opportunity to sneeze at minus the commitment which I believe is a minimum of 2 years. Also as an older FT MBA the idea of some level of job security with a BB going into the program would seem to offer me the opportunity to learn and network more- but perhaps I’m naive and it will lock me into something I’ll have a hard time getting out of.
Sorry, don’t know enough about it to say. However, at the MBA level it is extremely difficult to move into PE/VC because you have to network on your own and cannot rely on recruiters or a set process to the same degree. So if that is your main goal, you may want to reassess why you want to go into IB because it is not a terribly likely outcome.
Hi Brian,
A little unrelated to the question, but I recently got a FT offer from a BB, and the signing bonus was only $5000. When I asked HR about it, they said the industry average of $10k was only available to their returning interns, and since I was a full time hire, I was only eligible for half of that.
Have you ever heard of this/is this normal? And if not, should I try to negotiate with HR to get the full signing bonus? I feel like they’re only doing this because it’s so late in the process and it seems like I don’t have any other offers.
I have never heard of that. It sounds strange to me, but you don’t necessarily want to “negotiate” this because they could take it the wrong way and rescind your offer. $5K is small relative to your base salary + bonus, so it’s probably not worth the effort.
Do you still consider Wells Fargo as an IBAB or a BB? Differing opinions here but would love to hear yours.
Do you think it’s worth the lateral move from Wells to a top BB? (Tech)
Yes, I do (this article was written about a year ago, so not much has changed).
The usefulness of a lateral move depends on how badly you want to work at a mega-fund. If it’s your top goal in life, yes, a lateral move is worth it. If you don’t care, or you’d be fine with middle-market or upper-middle-market funds, then a move is not worth it.
Thoughts on Guggenheim vs JPM in Media and Comms team for MBA Summer Associate Position
JPM is the clear winner, especially if you ever want to move outside the finance industry.
What do you think my chances are of landing an analyst internship at an elite boutique in the US with a 2:1 (second class honours/ 3.5-3.8 GPA) with some extracurriculars? I’ve interned at a big 4 firm last summer if that helps..problem is that I don’t know if I’ll get an interview without any networking over there. Would really appreciate any advice!!
It’s very tough to make that type of move without networking in the US, being on the ground there via a study abroad program, or something similar. You’ll have to do some networking at the bare minimum to have a shot – the Big 4 internship will help a bit, but you’ll be up against people who have already had previous IB/PE internships. So it’s not necessarily a great idea unless you have a burning desire to work in a different country.
Hey Brian,
I would love to hear your advice on something.
Before that, let me tell you that my goal is to end up at a MM PE, with AUM of more than 1B preferably).
I have now 2 internship IB offers in continental Europe, both could potentially turn to full time offers.
One offer from an In-Between-a-Banks (think ING, ABN, SocGen) and another from a very respected MM M&A boutique (think Baird, William Blair, HL).
I would like to know which one of these two will eventually bring me higher probabilities of landing at a MM PE after 2-3 years at IB? and why?
Thanks in advance!
Not that much of a difference, but the M&A boutique is probably better because the work will be more relevant.
Thanks for the fast reply!
Last thing; Considering the fact that I want to end up at MM PE (think Bridgepoint), do you think it is better for me to lateral to a BB/EB (JPM, BofA, Lazard, Jefferies) after 1-2 years at the IBAB/MM boutique? If yes, then what are my chances of actually doing so? And how will your answer differ if I want to stay in Europe compared to if I want to move to the US, and/or Asia?
Yes, probably. Your chances depend entirely on your deal experience and how much you network to make the move. The answer doesn’t change based on the region.
Any thoughts on Keybank IBD? Reputation, exit opportunities etc.
I do not know enough to have a strong view. I believe they’re strong in financial sponsors / healthcare / real estate, but they’re still squarely in the “middle-market” category. So, good options for smaller buy-side firms, corporate development roles, etc., but not the place to be if you want to work at the mega-funds.
What’s your view on M Klein & Co?
Klein seems the real deal and his contacts/ reputation have gotten them on several high profile deals.
I am curious about the overall quality of his team; is it proportionate with his reputation? Do they have the ability to win deals if for some reason Klein no longer can? Do they hire the best and brightest?
Do not know them well enough to have a view, sorry.
Hi Brian, thanks for the informative article –
Can I ask your opinion on Equity Research at Raymond James vs IB at Mizuho for an undergrad summer analyst? (Also coming from a tech major so I don’t know what I want to do exactly in the finance field yet)
I would pick IB at Mizuho if you don’t know what you want to do yet, as it will give you more options, and the firm reputations are similar.
Brian – Trying to decide between Guggenheim and Lazard MM for IB summer analyst position – Any thoughts?
I would pick Lazard just because the overall name is better, and you’ll be working on similar deals anyway.
Brian,
I have accepted an offer with BMO Capital Markets and am interested in Growth Equity down the line. I understand that traditional buyout PE will be hard coming from my spot, but do I have a shot at getting some decent Growth Equity looks?
Potentially, yes, but capital markets tends to be harder to recruit from than industry groups or M&A. But for growth equity it might work since the work you do is more qualitative in both.
Hello! I’m unsure of what is “realistic” for me. I am from a heavily-recruited target school in the US, have a moderate-good GPA, a non-finance major, and no finance experience. I am a rising junior and will get investing experience via clubs. What category should I realistically aim for? Thank you
It will be almost impossible at this stage because junior-year recruiting now starts BEFORE your junior year even begins. See:
https://mergersandinquisitions.com/investment-banking-university-student-high-school-student/
You might look to this story for some ideas:
https://mergersandinquisitions.com/last-minute-investment-banking-recruiting/
Hi Brian,
Currently in my 2nd internship in a German IBAB in debt after done a first internship in the same area in a French brand name,
I am worried of my chances to get into a BB after graduated in 1yr even if my school is recognized as a top business school in Europe
The problem is, Does this 2nd internship (with a poor brand name) will ruin my shots to get into a summer in a BB?
Many thanks for all the topics you have covered so far!
No.
I want to add that the ”In-between banks” do not send more people to PE than MM firms. I did a full linkedin search of current and previous employees of MM PE and upper a few weeks ago in both the US and the UK. Not sure about anywhere else. Especially with the likes of Houlihan Lokey, Jefferies, William Blair. I did not keep track of Wells Fargo though, just for the sake of full disclosure, but HSBC, Nomura, RBC, etc. send less people into PE than MM firms, not sure because of self-selection during recruitment or other factors.
P/S: There are the absolute numbers btw. In terms of % size of class, I would imagine they would recruit similar class size.
Thanks for adding that. I don’t think you can exclude Wells Fargo because they’re, by far, the biggest bank in the IBAB category, and the best bank in that category for winning PE offers.
Maybe you do have a higher chance of getting into PE from a MM bank, but the point still remains that your chances are much higher at an EB or BB bank. We can debate IBAB vs. MM all day, but the real point is that you’re at a disadvantage coming from either of those.
Hi Brian – What are your thoughts on Three Ocean Partners? Do they have good buy-side placement post banking? Would you say they are on the same playing field as the Raine Group or LionTree?
I don’t know the firm, so I cannot comment on this one.
Does being at RB long term (like really no name) hurt your chances for b-school?
Thanks in advance!
Yes, somewhat. You’re always at a disadvantage next to people who worked at brand-name firms. You can still get into top business schools, but it’s harder and you’ll need something good outside of work.
Would you say Wells Fargo has now reached the level of DB/UBS? Specifically in Houston
I don’t know about Houston specifically, but based on recent league tables, I would say “No” at least for M&A deals when measured by value rather than # of deals – https://www.mergermarket.com/pdf/MergermarketFinancialLeagueTableReport.Q12017.pdf
Brian,
Do you think the recent Mobileye advisory deal Raymond James won solidifies their place among the top MM banks? I know they have been trending up and expanding in recent years, but do you think this is a sign of larger deals ahead, or a one and done? ….and of course, do you think this will affect headhunters perception of the bank and have any impact on exit opps..?
I really have no idea, but it takes a lot more than one deal to change a firm’s reputation. Also, within a certain category, being a “top” bank doesn’t make much of a difference… it’s not as if exit opportunities become a lot more widely available just because a bank’s reputation within its category has improved.
Brian, what are your thoughts on Foros and Raine? Very little information available online. Thanks
Foros I’ve never heard of (but looks like they have decent deals on their website?). Raine is well-known among merchant banks and has advised on some pretty large/high-profile deals.
If you are at a top MM bank (i.e. Houlihan Lokey, William Bliair, etc.) – would it make sense to transition to Rothschild M&A for better exit opportunities? Trying to better position myself since most of the larger PE shops did not look at analysts from my bank.
That depends… if you’re in Europe, yes, since Rothschild has a better reputation there, but if you’re in the U.S., it may not make much sense because its reputation isn’t quite as good. A move to Lazard/Evercore/Moelis would make more sense, but Rothschild would probably give you a step up in exit opportunities, even if you still don’t have access to the largest funds.
Thanks Brian. I have an offer at Rothschild and was hoping to move to one of the other EBs. Would prefer Evercore, Lazard, or Greenhill and currently debating whether to hold out for a spot there. Any additionally thoughts you have would be helpful – been in banking for a year and hoping to go the EB route for better exits outside of the $.5 to $1 billion funds I currently have access to.
Hi Brian,
Sorry to keep bothering you with these questions, but recruiting keeps changing. What are your thoughts on Hines vs Eastdil?
I don’t know, about the same? It seems like there’s very little information on Hines, which raises questions in my mind…
Hey Brian,
Great article! Any thoughts on where Sandler O’ Neil would place?
Probably in the Industry-Specific Boutique category given its focus on financial services. Maybe you could make an argument for “middle-market,” but I’m not sure of their average deal size.
Where does Union Square Advisors (tech) fall under the category?
Somewhere between UCEB and ISB. Although they have advised on some bigger deals, I don’t think there is much data on exit opportunities there. And like a lot of boutiques, they tend to encourage internal promotions.
Do you happen to have any insight regarding the ranking of banks in the Nordic countries?
No, we do not. It’s incredibly difficult to find information on that market because they’re all small countries, and so even more activity takes place in London instead. We did an interview with someone in Sweden renewable energy a few years ago:
https://mergersandinquisitions.com/nordic-renewable-investments/
Does the deal experience from summer internship count? My group had a lot of deal flows last summer and I was on two deals and they recently got closed. Can I talk about these two deals for my interviews with other banks?
Now the deals I am working on are super slow and barely have any update. I know you wrote an article on working on cross-border M&A deals before and not suggest readers to ask more work from staffer. However, since my deals are so slow and I don’t have great deal experience after joining the same firm for full time, do you think I should reach out to my staffer and mention I will have capacity to help on other projects? Meanwhile, since it’s almost Christmas time, I don’t think the market is very active overall, and I don’t want to get random assignments.
Curious to hear your opinion on this.
Yes, you can talk about that deal experience in interviews with other banks. If it has been months and you haven’t had good deal experience yet, yes, you should reach out to your staffer and say that you can help with other projects (but as you said, the market always slows down at the end of the year, so there may not be much out there).
I worked on two closed deals last summer and I definitely will talk about those in my interviews. I’ve started in this back in August. After one month training, I’ve been working here for 3 months. In these 3 months, I’ve worked 4 bake-offs and 2 live deals. One of the live deals didn’t require I do much and the other one is very quiet. Based on your experience, would you say my deal experience is normally or too limited.
I’ve emailed my staffer and expressed my willingness to help on other projects. My staff hasn’t responded it yet…do you think I should walk into his office tomorrow and ask for more work? I would rather work for 24 hours than sitting at my desk and doing nothing.
Any advice you can give to a clueless analyst would be appreciated.
That sounds about normal. Most people get no substantial deal experience until a year into the job. I would wait a few days and then go in-person to ask your staffer for more work. His response will probably be: “It’s slow / it’s the end of the year” or something to that effect, so you may not be able to do much.
To Brian,
What are your thoughts on a place like Eastdil (real estate) vs RJ(IB)? What would you recommend for S.A?
Eastdil has a great reputation for real estate (maybe the best RE-focused bank), so if you want stay in RE or move to RE-related exit opportunities, it’s a good choice. Raymond James is better if you’re not sure what you want to specialize in yet and you want to keep your options open.
Brian,
What would you say your overall opinion/assessment is of RJ (IB) and its exit opps, and in relation to other MM banks?
It’s a solid middle-market bank, probably about on par with the others. They have been gaining ground in recent years.
I am an international student who started as an analyst 4 months ago. My bank is a boutique firm but I want to work in a bulge bank for better exit opportunities. I really want to start looking for other positions and start networking, but my current company will sponsor my visa (the visa process will start next April and if you get the visa lottery, you can’t move before October when the visa gets effective).
Hence, if I stay with my current firm, I won’t be able to change for another bank until October next year…If I start looking for opportunities at other banks, I may join the firm right before the visa process and I am not even sure whether I will get the visa in April (it’s a lottery process).
If I don’t get a visa, I would need to return Hong Kong. However, then I would have 5-6 months experience in this boutique firm and another 3-4 months experience at a bigger firm.
Given so many uncertainties about the visa and immigration policy, what would you suggest or have you seen any readers have the same issue before?
My boutique firm’s deal flows are not strong at all so I am really worried I won’t get great experience listed on my resume.
Any advice would be really appreciated.
Thanks Brian!
I think it depends on how much you want to stay in the U.S. If you don’t care, and you really just want to leave the firm, apply for roles at large banks in HK and move ASAP. If you want to stay in the country, stay and try to make a move around October next year. You can start interviewing a few months before that, assuming you get a visa.
Even if your deal experience isn’t great, you could still move over to a larger bank because they tend to interview people based on their bank name and position/title.
Brian, do you think there is bamboo ceiling in the States? I don’t really see many Asians make it to MD or above – do you think it’s because of cultural and language barriers? Given a large amount of your readers are Chinese, Indians and Koreans, what do you think it’s the best for us: stay in the States and compete with Americans or move back to home country which is isolated from the headquarter in the US or in the UK? Do you think Asians can make it to the top of investment banking in the future?
Yes, there is, but more so for Asians who are not originally from the U.S. I have seen Asian MDs, but usually they were born and raised in the country. If you have a mix of both cultures, the best option is to work in some type of group or firm where you advise on cross-border deals so that you have an advantage over local candidates in both countries. It’s still better to start out by working at a large firm in the U.S. or U.K., but after that you should specialize in something tailored to your background.
How would you rank the restructuring banks that are not top 3 (HL, LAZ, PJT), like Miller Buckfire, Millstein, Rothschild, Ducera, Perella Weinberg, Moelis, Evercore, Jefferies, Guggenheim, and Greenhill? Seems Miller Buckfire’s been dying slowly since it was acquired by Stifel with the senior bankers jumping to Guggenheim and other firms recently, and Greenhill’s dealflow in restructuring has also been weak lately. Perella obviously suffered from all the big hitters leaving to start Ducera. Millstein started recently but are on very big deals, and Evercore while strong reputationally, are still establishing themselves. Moelis and Rothschild seems to be strong, and Jefferies I’m not sure about… How would you establish the tiers here?
I’m not sure I know enough about all of them to provide a real ranking. I agree that Miller Buckfire and Greenhill haven’t been doing as well as the others. In general, Rothschild, Moelis, and Evercore are still probably your best bets because of their overall reputation. You would have to look at league tables for the others. I think Jefferies is decent in this area, but again, probably works on smaller deals than the others.
How does this look like today? Feel like we also have more info on newer firms like Ducera.
I haven’t looked at this recently, so I can’t really say, but Mizuho acquired Greenhill and Stifel acquired Miller Buckfire, so they’re gone (unless you want to put Mizuho and Stifel in this category now). Rothschild, Moelis, and Evercore are al still good. For the newer ones, I’d have to do a bit more research and see. We are going to publish an update of this article soon.
Hey Brian,
Thanks for the article and for all you do. You are the man. Quick question –
Would you say working in a restructuring group at a top MM bank (excluding HLHZ) places you in a better position at medium to larger sized funds?
If you can find a fund with a restructuring/distressed/turnaround focus or group, yes. But it would still be tough to move from restructuring into a generalist role at a large fund because headhunters basically force you down a specific industry path.
How soon can people change from one bank to another? I really don’t like my current team and deal flows in my team are very weak. However, I’ve only started for 5 months and have limited deal experience. Any advice would be appreciated.
Most people change around the 1-year mark, but you can move whenever you want… if you want to move, start now. Don’t try to time the market because the process always takes more time than you think.
Good point Brian. Also, my bank will likely to claw back my signing bonus. Can I negotiate on this if I get an offer from another bank? Or can I get my new employer to pay for this?
The easiest solution is to just say that you already spent your signing bonus and can’t return it to them. But you could ask the new bank about it as well.
Great article Brian!
For people work in middle market firms such as Jefferies and Houlihan Lokey, is it possible to get into mega fund (such as Silverlake) directly? If not, would you recommend moving to a bb/elite boutique after 1-2 years? Does networking help at all for PE recruiting, or PE recruiting is 100% based on head hunters?
It would be almost impossible to get into mega-funds if you’re coming from a MM bank. I’m sure it has been done before (as I know someone will leave a comment offering some crazy exception), but it’s highly unlikely, especially with the way PE recruiting now works (extremely quickly). So if you want to work at one of those places, yes, you will need to move to an EB or BB.
PE recruiting at mega-funds and most middle-market funds is based almost entirely on recruiters, at least in the New York market. An article tomorrow will detail the craziness of the process and why recruiters handle it so poorly. It’s not as structured in Europe (and maybe some smaller markets in the U.S.).
Hello,
I study in a “target” UK university and have borderline 1:1, but I have only done internship in a SEA regional investment bank. Which kind of UK investment bank do I have a realistic chance of working at?
Thank you.
You could potentially get into a BB, EB, or IBAB with those stats, but another internship would help. So it really depends on how much time you have left before graduating. If you have time for another internship at a larger bank, you have a good shot at any of those 3 categories. But even without one, you have a decent shot.
Good day!
Can’t find any info about brokerage companies?
Could you cover this theme?
We’ve covered this topic before. Do a search.
What about Harris Williams? What’s their reputation and how do they fare in terms of exit opps?
They’re in the middle-market category, so exit opportunities would be about the same: Mostly smaller buy-side funds that opt out of the on-cycle recruiting process, other banks, and corporate finance/development roles at normal companies.
My former roommate worked at Harris Williams and this doesn’t seem right. The overwhelming majority (85%+) of Harris Williams analysts place into PE, primarily because of the deep rooted relationships the firm has with PE clients (represent 75%+ of client base). HW is typically regarded as the #1 middle market bank, so that certainly helps as well. I would say to generalize the funds they end up at as “smaller buyside shops” is an incorrect statement. Very few, if any, will stay in banking, and if they do it will be as a direct promote to associate, which HW seems to offer to the majority of analysts who want to stay. Hope this helps.
I would disagree. If Analysts from Harris Williams place so well, why are there not many of them on the “Team” pages of mega-funds or even middle-market funds?
(Also note: By “smaller buy-side funds,” I mean anything under $1 billion in AUM.)
The number of Analysts at BBs, EBs, and IBABs exceeds the number of spots at middle-market and larger PE funds each year… and as a result, many of those Analysts won’t even end up in PE.
Also, I don’t think anyone considers Harris Williams to be the #1 middle-market bank. Just to give you two specific examples of why, take a look at a few recent league tables from this year and last year:
http://dmi.thomsonreuters.com/Content/Files/1Q2016_MandA_MidMarket_FA_Review.pdf
http://dmi.thomsonreuters.com/Content/Files/2Q2015_MandA_MidMarket_FA_Review.pdf
Where are they on those lists? You might be able to make an argument for HL, Jefferies, Lincoln, or Raymond James being the top middle-market bank, but what data supports Harris Williams in that spot?
I’m happy to take back that statement if you can show evidence of why Harris Williams should be the #1 middle-market bank, or how well its Analysts have placed (e.g., 5-10 “Team” pages of middle-market PE funds that have Analysts from Harris Williams).
It’s also very interesting how you currently work at Harris Williams (from your email address, it was easy to find your LinkedIn profile). I’m sure that has nothing to do with this comment, though.
Nothing against the firm, as it’s a fine place to work, but the claims above are a stretch.
Hey Brian, what about merchant banks? I managed to get more interviews there for some reason. Is it possible to stay there for a year and go into PE or an EB? Is it as good as being at a MM bank, but better than a RB? Just curious if not I will just try and recruit for any off cycle spots at BBs. What do you think?
Love this article by the way and thanks for doing this! :)
Thanks! Merchant banks are fine, but I think it would be tough to move into a larger PE fund from one. You would probably have to focus on smaller funds that “opt out” of the on-cycle recruiting frenzy. It would probably be easier to move into a bigger bank from there. Yes, I would say a merchant bank is definitely better than a regional bank and probably about the same as a middle-market bank.
Brian – would not a merchant bank role better prepare you for PE?
The logic is that you could easily talk about developing the “investor mindset” as well as the enjoyment of working with companies in the long-term. Essentially, you are developing a very similar skill set to what PE desires, which would make your life, as the interviewee, easier.
While brand name does matter, what are your thoughts about doing merchant banking at one of the BB’s like GS, BAML, Citi, etc. You get the best of both worlds: name brand and skill set
In theory yes, but in reality, everything is driven by prestige and brand names, and the top merchant banks don’t have the same prestige as the top BB/EB banks, so you’re at a disadvantage in recruiting. I’m not sure about merchant banking at the large banks as I’ve never been able to find much information on it.
Hi Brian, in what category would you put Spanish Banks Santander and BBVA, In-Between-a-Banks (IBABs) or Middle-Market?
I would say IBABs since they’re strong in certain regions/products and tend to work on larger deals there.
Have you ever heard of a firm called Lancaster Pollard?
No
how big are the analyst classes of In Betweens? It seems quite a few of the In Betweens from outside North America only hire for NYC eg HSBC and BNP. Also is it correct to assume they are a bit more selective than middle markets but less selective than EB?
Yes, the analyst class sizes and overall competitiveness are somewhere in between MM and EB firms. I’ve probably seen/heard a few more “Breaking in at the last minute, against all odds” stories at that group of banks as well. You might be right about the non-North-American firms mostly hiring for NY, but part of that is also because off-cycle and 6-month internships are a lot more common in Europe, and those banks offer those types of internships.
How would you classify Cantor Fitzgerald?
I knew I forgot at least one… they’re middle-market.
Brian,
I very much agree with you that people often ask the wrong question. Great article. On that note, can I get a quick assessment of which banks I should target? 3.6 GPA from a semi-target with good analytical internship experience but not investment banking. I’m graduating in the spring having accepted a Big 4 advisory FT offer, but I’m going to try to make the jump to IB.
Thanks!
Thanks! With that background, you should probably aim for middle-market banks and possible some of the industry-specific boutiques. You could potentially move to EB or BB banks, but your chances are probably better at smaller firms.